Don't you just hate... dickheads who block your attempts to trade a stock by always outbidding you by exactly 0.0001? /forum/read.php?14,9756,9756#msg-9756 Sat, 06 Feb 2016 00:34:07 +1300 Phorum 5.2.10 /forum/read.php?14,9756,14111#msg-14111 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,14111#msg-14111 ORACLE Rants, Raves, Off Topic Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:59:41 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,14109#msg-14109 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,14109#msg-14109
Except for those large volume/low probability bets, I think it should be common etiquitte to differentiate bids by 1/4c. If you can't do that, then perhaps its a courtesy to drop below a similar existing bid.]]> tradingmonster Rants, Raves, Off Topic Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:10:56 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,14027#msg-14027 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,14027#msg-14027
Unfortunately, these pillocks are part of life and I have no doubt that they will be along soon to defend themselves.]]> ORACLE Rants, Raves, Off Topic Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:18:26 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,14022#msg-14022 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,14022#msg-14022
It is clear that you have no interest whatsoever in actually trading that stock, and that your only intent is to piss people off. You, sir, are a DICKHEAD. It's people like you who ruin everything that's good in the world. Please kill yourself now.]]> maxb Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:29:10 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13616#msg-13616 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13616#msg-13616
If you are giving up on bidding [email protected] because of someone bidding only [email protected], and you're not willing to jump over them to meet the market maker selling [email protected], then I would suggest the market for that particular stock is so devoid of liquidity anyway that your [email protected] wouldn't be picked up in any decent length of time - no matter what the increment - and it's unfair to expect others not to jump in ahead.

I should note also that the incremental bids I do place are more along the lines of active orders well down the books. If I desperately want stocks, I'll just buy them. Life is indeed too short to constantly place the next highest bid at the very top of the order book, and the best way to teach people that lesson is to simply spend the extra two cents taking the closest sell order.]]> gr Rants, Raves, Off Topic Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:08:28 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13610#msg-13610 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13610#msg-13610
If you really wanted those 50 stock, you could reduce the bid-ask spread somewhat.
I mean if you are bidding say 50@ 0.90 but the nearest sell is 25@ 0.925, you can hardly complain if someone jumps in front no matter how small the margin. Why not take the 25@ 0.925 and try to pick up a further 25 later.
Ultimately you have to wait like everybody else on the bid side.

One idea is to perhaps put 5 orders of 10 in the order book at slightly different prices (averaging to what you are willing to pay). To the untrained eye this can disguise a volume higher than what the MM is set to.

Ultimately the only real answer is more trading volume as what you describe happens more (or at least is more obvious) on the slow moving markets compared to the more popular ones.]]> TraderV Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:16:05 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13606#msg-13606 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13606#msg-13606
I take my share of losses here which I accept, my judgement, my call, that's it but, I'm also here for the fun and that does not include being pissed about by those playing for .0001. When a stock is down to just a few cents that's different but when it's around 90 cents I'm rapidly lossing interest and patience with the .0001 players.]]> ORACLE Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:44:00 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13602#msg-13602 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13602#msg-13602
Incremental bids mean more people can jump into that one/two cent gap and increase liquidity on a daily basis without waiting for a big jump. Requiring a premium makes that very unattractive, or even impossible.

A possible solution would be to require different increments for different stocks, e.g. .0001 for the Green vote share, but a whole cent for the NZX weekly stocks which go up and down like crazy. But then you risk (1) inconsistency and uncertainty; and (2) dissuading smaller/hobby players who want to offload their 20 stocks at a small gain (i.e. by placing an order in the order book rather than snapping up existing orders) before moving on.]]> gr Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:42:51 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13601#msg-13601 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13601#msg-13601
Life's too short to press refresh all day.]]> tradingmonster Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:41:45 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13592#msg-13592 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13592#msg-13592
If the minimum difference is 0.0001, then at peak times you'll have bids lining up at .9001, .9002, .9003 etc. If the minimum difference is .001, then the bids will be .901, .902, .903 etc.

Unless you're trying to acquire 10,000 stocks, no-one actually cares whether they buy at .9001 or .901. The reason why people increase bids by such an incremental amount is to acquire/clear 20 stocks before the competition. The actual price doesn't matter, just the ability to get in first. So the problem of miniscule, incremental bids will always occur and we should just live with it.

I will openly admit that I'm guilty of some preferential bidding by incremental amounts - especially now that sitting orders don't attract trading fees. In fact, it'd be irrational to buy up stock other than through a sitting order if you're confident your sitting order will get picked up. And if you accept that, it's irrational to place your sitting order other than "just above the next guy", whatever the lowest margin.

I'm not fussed if the margin is changed to (say) .001 or even to a whole cent for some stocks. But anyone who thinks that it will stop the practice of people blocking bids by the lowest margin is mistaken.]]> gr Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:59:57 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13591#msg-13591 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13591#msg-13591
It gets a little hairier now with the 0.0035 trading fee though.]]> Lanthanide Rants, Raves, Off Topic Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:27:53 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13588#msg-13588 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13588#msg-13588 ORACLE Rants, Raves, Off Topic Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:06:35 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,13586#msg-13586 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,13586#msg-13586
Rather than complicating matters, why not just remove a decimal point. If someone needs to trade on less than a tenth of a cent, then we're wasting our time.

Personally, quarter cents would be meaningful, but I can't see that being easy coding.]]> tradingmonster Rants, Raves, Off Topic Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:22:57 +1200 /forum/read.php?14,9756,10007#msg-10007 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,10007#msg-10007
Alan.]]> Alan3285 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Mon, 08 Nov 2010 23:38:02 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,10004#msg-10004 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,10004#msg-10004 pipe42 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Mon, 08 Nov 2010 23:26:45 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9992#msg-9992 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9992#msg-9992
Are they allowed? I see nothing in the T&Cs that rules them either in or out.

What's the advantage of bidding a hundredth of a cent below (or above) an existing bid?
1) As TraderV notes, this is a very small premium to pay for preferential execution.
2) If you're not a "big" trader, but are interested in buying a stock if only it were priced a bit lower than it is now, you might see someone else big bid down the book as an opportunity, reasoning that the big bid will attract trades further away from current price than your smaller bid can.
3) You're action-motivated, and find trading boring unless contracts are changing hands.

Would someone automate this? I very much doubt it. It's a strange, strange kind of non-information based trading if they are. I'd be interested to see if this happens in other contracts in a bundle simultaneously.]]> bkd Rants, Raves, Off Topic Mon, 08 Nov 2010 18:36:52 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9985#msg-9985 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9985#msg-9985
Are bots allowed (he asks being too lazy to re-read the T&Cs)?

I agree that the 'almost instantaneous' thing is strongly indicative though.

Alan.]]> Alan3285 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:21:31 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9967#msg-9967 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9967#msg-9967
Quote
andrew93
It is interesting to watch the almost instantaneous reactions.

... it sounds automated to me.

My question to advanced tradergeeks (read: bkd) would be, what would be the advantage of doing this?]]> pipe42 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:04:48 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9945#msg-9945 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9945#msg-9945
I would just point out that there might be a substantive difference between looking to 'acquire' stocks at a small difference of 0.0001 and looking to 'clear' stocks at the same difference.

In the former, it is possibly annoying only.

In the latter, if you want to exit from (cover) a position (long or short) then there is much to be said for being 0.0001 better than the next best buy or sell price.

Alan.]]> Alan3285 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Sat, 06 Nov 2010 13:20:44 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9834#msg-9834 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9834#msg-9834
For example to outbid a buy at 0.9000 you'd have to bid 0.9090, and to outbid a sell at 0.1000 you have to bid 0.0910. Anything bid outside that range could be automatically adjusted.

In fact I think I'll repost this at the feature request.]]> maxb Rants, Raves, Off Topic Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:37:28 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9803#msg-9803 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9803#msg-9803 /sarcasm (for above).

However, you're assuming:
1. The person who outbids by 0.0001 is the same bidder who returns to outbid again (& again etc)
2. They are wasting their time.

Probably you are being outbid by different people who see 0.0001 as a good premium for preferential execution.
The solution would be to try and fill the spread. Sometimes they can be quite wide (5c etc) or have patience that your order will get filled. By checking all the time you are wasting your own time/life etc ...

In other parts of the forum it's been suggested we need a 'order good until', 'stop-loss' etc etc which I think would help. Maybe an ebay style 'autobid' could work where if someone bids within x of your position it will autobid to a new price? Charge a small fee (for the service) to fund market maker activities etc ...]]> TraderV Rants, Raves, Off Topic Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:41:25 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9795#msg-9795 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9795#msg-9795 andrew93 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 22:22:53 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9789#msg-9789 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9789#msg-9789 maxb Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:52:31 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9784#msg-9784 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9784#msg-9784 ;)]]> TraderV Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:12:16 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9782#msg-9782 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9782#msg-9782
But I totally agree if your going to better someone's price then do it... but don't piss round with some tiny fraction of a cent. Unless your trading thousands of stocks its not going make any difference.]]> spartan1178 Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:25:53 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9781#msg-9781 Re: Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9781#msg-9781 bkd Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:28:15 +1300 /forum/read.php?14,9756,9756#msg-9756 Don't you just hate... /forum/read.php?14,9756,9756#msg-9756 maxb Rants, Raves, Off Topic Tue, 02 Nov 2010 14:30:53 +1300